Draw Viewport

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ryancousins
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Draw Viewport

Post by ryancousins » Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:54 pm

This is a very trivial item, but I'm wondering if it would make sense for "Add Viewport" to just stand alone in the "draw" menu, just like "Ring", "Text", and "Insert Bitmap" already do? Unless there is a specific reason for a "Viewport" menu level, for instance, for possible future related commands in addition to just the one add viewport command that is currently in that menu level? Something roughly like the screenshot below? I just use the VT shortcut myself, but I try to limit how many shortcuts I try to get my students to memorize (Ctrl-Z, QQ, and ZA seems to be the limit for some!) so this would just make this step a tiny bit more straightforward.
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viewport menu.png
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Last edited by ryancousins on Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

CVH
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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by CVH » Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:41 pm

I've always found 'VT' an odd one out.
We don't actually draw something and there is no reference in Model_space ... :wink:
And of course, we do add something in the sense of adding a text or an image and not like we are going to draw a text.

Ring is just a kind of Polyline for me.
A special one I agree but that is this one too:
https://qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic.php? ... 889#p30803
Only QCAD can't handle that :cry: (https://www.qcad.org/rsforum/viewtopic. ... 092#p36092)

VT is indeed an exception of one method in a sub-menu.
There is another one ... Disregarding the Scripts Examples:
Misc .. Projection .. Map Projection.
While Projections and Transformations are a sub-menu of Modify ... !?

Now I start wondering what future related commands there would be for Viewports. :wink:

Another set of odds ones are the 'focus on' commands.
One doesn't view those, they are required to edit something.

BTW there was no screenshot ... :wink:

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CVH

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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by ryancousins » Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:44 pm

I think I have the screenshot now. Not sure why it didn't upload the first time.

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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by ryancousins » Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:46 pm

CVH wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:41 pm
I've always found 'VT' an odd one out.
I agree that VT is an oddball. I'm not saying my suggestion is the optimal place for the command, but mostly just suggesting getting it out from under a menu that seems like it serves no purpose since it's the only command inside. Perhaps there is an even better place?

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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by ryancousins » Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:04 pm

CVH wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:41 pm
Now I start wondering what future related commands there would be for Viewports. :wink:
How about a command to toggle on/off viewing your viewports in model space? :D

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Husky
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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by Husky » Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm

ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:54 pm
Unless there is a specific reason for a "Viewport" menu level, for instance, for possible future related commands in addition to just the one add viewport command that is currently in that menu level?
I've no inside knowledge what's behind this decision but I'm 100% sure there is a plan for further developments. Why make things complicate by closing a door when the possibility exist that you need this door open in the future?
ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:54 pm
I just use the VT shortcut myself, but I try to limit how many shortcuts I try to get my students to memorize (Ctrl-Z, QQ, and ZA seems to be the limit for some!) so this would just make this step a tiny bit more straightforward.
Interesting thinking - how would changing the command order in a Menu improve the memorizing skills? Despite a changed menu order the shortcut VT would apply unchanged, right?
ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 6:54 pm
I just use the VT shortcut myself, but I try to limit how many shortcuts I try to get my students to memorize (Ctrl-Z, QQ, and ZA seems to be the limit for some!) so this would just make this step a tiny bit more straightforward.
In my opinion straightforward would be to introduce the students to ALL possibility's of launching a QCAD tool. And as you know by now there are a lot (Shortcuts/Menu/Command Line/Tool Matrix/CAD Tools/User Tool Bar's)! On that way the student can pick a way what works best for him/her.
This said - whats e.g. about the customizable "User Tool Bar". Easiest way to collect all tools used on a daily base and it will execute a command on a one click basis ...
ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:04 pm
How about a command to toggle on/off viewing your viewports in model space? :D
Well, maybe we shout wait until a visible Viewport in Model_Space is implemented before we discus how to switch it on/off.
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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by CVH » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:09 am

ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 7:46 pm
Perhaps there is an even better place?
Agreed, initially I had issues in locating it in the menu bar.
I expected this in relation to Layouts and thus Blocks. :roll:

Like you I simply used 'VT' and it took a mind twist to differentiate Blocks from Layout Blocks.
For me all Blocks have a 'paper mode', I can turn on Print Preview for any Block, define paper, scale and so on.
The difference was that editing a Layout automatically turned on 'paper mode'.
Then again, I can turn that off for a Layout Block.

Adding a Viewport to a Layout resides in the Draw menu.
Adding a Layout is located under the Block menu.
But several Block commands don't work with Layouts e.g. Duplicate Block (BY).

One can add Viewports to common Blocks, only it won't show/preview in the Model Space Block and you get an exception warning.
When we insert such a Block with Viewport in Model Space, the Viewport contour is visible but there is nothing much displayed inside, even not in 'Paper Mode'.
Odd thing is that text entities do display. :shock: That and not the rest seems to be a bug.

To make it even more confusing there are a second kind of Viewports, those we can set up in the Drawing Preferences.
Drawing .. Layout .. Viewports.
In essence that are also viewports of the model but at GUI level and there is nothing involved like a Layout ... :roll:
Add Viewport, nor Add Layout is intended to add or change these.

IMHO:
- Layout Blocks are treated different than other Blocks meaning functional, order of listing and so on.
- Viewports are only meaningful for Layout Blocks.
I would group these things together beside the menu with common Blocks commands.

And if there was an unambiguous naming for Drawing-Layout-Viewports then I would like that too. :wink:
ryancousins wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:04 pm
How about a command to toggle on/off viewing your viewports in model space?
Sure, but like I said, there is no reference in Model Space.
The reference sits in a Layout Block and stores scale, center, size, offset and rotation.
Just recently there was a question on to how display the Viewport areas ...
... I can not replicate the red, magenta and purple rectangle in Model Space of 'Viewports and Duplication' in
https://qcad.org/en/tutorial-working-wi ... -viewports
Except by drawing unrelated colored shapes. :roll:

Regards,
CVH

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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by CVH » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:43 am

Husky wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm
On that way the student can pick a way what works best for him/her.
I agree with that changing menu orders won't change how students are able to memorize things.
But I see other hurdles.
There are no Block commands in the CAD Toolbar except BC.
The majority of Draw commands is listed there except VT.
VT shows up in the Toolbar Matrix but again nothing for Blocks or Layouts.

Agreed that we can customize a lot in QCAD but I just look at this from the initial installation perspective.
Only when one is familiar with everything, one can try to set up things as preferred.
And all that until an Application reset is required.

Regards,
CVH

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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by ryancousins » Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:05 pm

Husky wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm

I've no inside knowledge what's behind this decision but I'm 100% sure there is a plan for further developments. Why make things complicate by closing a door when the possibility exist that you need this door open in the future?
I'm glad to hear that. I certainly wouldn't wish to close a door on the possibility of further development. That is why I mentioned that perhaps the seemingly extra menu is there for future development. :)
Husky wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm
Interesting thinking - how would changing the command order in a Menu improve the memorizing skills? Despite a changed menu order the shortcut VT would apply unchanged, right?
You're correct that it wouldn't improve their memorization skills. I didn't explain this very clearly, but I have my students use the CAD Toolbar buttons and menu bar for everything and only explicitly mention the keyboard shortcuts for a small number of commands because many of my students don't have an appetite for learning keyboard shortcuts so it's important they at least know where to find a command from the toolbars and menu bars. So moving the draw viewport command wouldn't help memorization of anything, it would just make getting to this command from the menu bar a bit more straightforward.
Husky wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm
In my opinion straightforward would be to introduce the students to ALL possibility's of launching a QCAD tool. And as you know by now there are a lot (Shortcuts/Menu/Command Line/Tool Matrix/CAD Tools/User Tool Bar's)! On that way the student can pick a way what works best for him/her.
This said - whats e.g. about the customizable "User Tool Bar". Easiest way to collect all tools used on a daily base and it will execute a command on a one click basis ...
I would agree. I always try to show my students many or all options of executing a certain tool or function. For example, I point out to my students where to look to see what the keyboard shortcuts are in case they are someone that likes to use them. (I just don't explicitly talk about each shortcut for every command) In addition to that, I have printed out big posters of the keyboard shortcut pdfs to hang on my wall. :lol: I just don't have an expectation that most of my students will memorize many of the keyboard shortcuts. Half of my students are dumped into my class because there is no where else to put them. I literally have many students that struggle with things like "what is half of five" even in high school, so I have to pick my battles!
Husky wrote:
Wed Oct 26, 2022 10:53 pm
Well, maybe we shout wait until a visible Viewport in Model_Space is implemented before we discus how to switch it on/off.
Jeez, I was just joking around :wink:

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Husky
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Re: Draw Viewport

Post by Husky » Thu Oct 27, 2022 7:27 pm

ryancousins wrote:
Thu Oct 27, 2022 1:05 pm
I literally have many students that struggle with things like "what is half of five" even in high school, so I have to pick my battles!
Yes, I hear you! I'll never understand that not everybody on earth knows that the half of five is equal 2 ... e_confused
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